130i drivetrain throttle bounce

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tbt
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130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by tbt » Sat May 05, 2018 1:21 am

My car is a 2006 130i manual transmission on 154,000 miles

For a very long time I’ve had a very annoying “bounce/rock” front to back, both when re-engaging the clutch after changing gear, and when in-gear and applying or coming off the throttle.
I thought it was down to a driveshaft or other part of the driveline having some sort of play or backlash in it, but as I’ve changed/upgraded more and more parts as you’ll see in the list below, the problem is not going away.

Below I will try and describe the sensation when I stay in gear and just come on and off the gas, as it’s easier to talk about this without the added complexities of gear change and clutch engagement.

As the driveline tenses up when you apply throttle, even lightly, you get a jerk sensation bouncing you back in seat your twice. With a heavy application of throttle from coasting this becomes more pronounced. This is upsetting to the balance of the car, not to mention it makes you look to your passengers like you don’t know how to drive a manual (I assure you I don’t have this issue driving other manual cars!) The CDV has been removed.
The same thing happens when you come off the throttle but the jerk sends your head nodding forward once or twice. It is more pronounced the lower the gear you are in. Even in 4th gear the effect is still frustrating. By 5th gear and upwards it doesn’t really have much of a noticeable effect though.
The best way I can describe it is it’s like there is a backlash somewhere and the tensing up of the driveline creates a rubbery bouncy feeling when on and off the gas.

My 130i even though it is a high mileage example at 154k has been looked after extremely well. The previous owner and myself have both work for automotive OEMs and have maintained the car at all costs. I’ve done a lot of upgrades, including stiffer M3 bushings on the gearbox, rear subframe and the front guibo. So in general there is a feeling of stiffness to the driveline, but completely marred by something else.

Before anyone wonders if any specific part is at fault, below I’ve stated the spec/age of various parts;
-CDV Removed
-Clutch and flywheel – replaced with standard new LUK parts 25k ago
-BMS clutch stop – Tried all different heights from stock to thickest, none help
-Driveshafts – No play, recently replaced
-Diff – Full rebuild with ALL bearings replaced when Quaife fitted 9 months ago
-Propshaft – Had no play when last removed from car 2 years ago
-Guibos – both replaced 2 years ago, front one with E46 M3 version which is stiffer than standard. Rear one is standard
-Gearbox + new oil – replaced with 2nd hand one from Z4 3.0si allegedly on 60k miles, 10 months ago
-Engine mounts – Recently replaced with standard new Febi bilstein ones
-Gearbox mounts – Replaced for E46 M3 ones, slightly harder rubber than stock
-Rear subframe – Is an E92 M3 item therefore has the solid rubber M3 subframe and diff bushes
-MAF sensor – Recently replaced with new pattern part off eBay
-Vanos Solenoids – Recently cleaned
-Throttle reset procedure had no effect, or possibly I did it wrong.
-Car is not remapped

Is it normal to have a bit of rotational free play in the input flange of the diff when the wheels are on the ground? When I had it rebuilt last year, before I reinstalled it I had a play rotating the input flange and the driveshaft flanges and it all seemed like there was just the fraction of backlash that you would expect to find when it’s setup as per spec. However when looking at it installed on the car with the wheels on the ground you do get a few mm of movement at the input flange. Is this normal?

The gearbox was replaced, albeit with a second hand box that was from a breakers yard, claimed to have been on 60k miles from a Z4 3.0si (which uses the same box as the 130i). It does make a lot of chatter when the box oil is hot and it’s in neutral until you depress the clutch and then the noise stops. I believe from reading other posts that this is fairly common though, but not sure if it is a sign of wear in any way?

Does anyone have any similar experience of this? This is really puzzling me as to what’s going on.
Is anyone local with a 130i that is free to come and have a compare? I’m in Leamington Spa, Warwickshire. Mostly free this bank holiday weekend except Sunday afternoon if anyone wants to meet up.

Tim
2006 E87 130i BMWP Parts-[Exhaust/Intake/Fr & Rr Brakes/Strut Brace/SS Kit]
M3 Parts-[Rear Subframe/Rear upper arms/Front Tension & LCA]
Quaife LSD, Bilstein B12 kit, Megan Racing toe arms, E46 M3 trans mounts, CDV delete

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THETYRANT
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Re: 130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by THETYRANT » Sat May 05, 2018 7:59 am

Dual mass flywheel maybe, 25k isn't a lot for it but wouldn't be first not to last long, also who did quaife conversion and what did backlash measure?
--
Now on my 3rd 130i, this time a nice E81 in Graphite, Previously 2 x 130i and 2 x 135i

Camber plate project - http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=96465

Suspension Quest thread - http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=80208

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marco_polo
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Re: 130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by marco_polo » Sat May 05, 2018 8:34 am

Yup, the DMF is designed to act exactly as you're describing, adds loads of soft backlash.

Maybe consider a solid flywheel conversion if it really bothers you? Wouldn't normally recommend one as you'll suffer a bit of gearbox chatter in Neutral.
Silver F21 M135i - ManBox - HK - Adaptive + Eibach Pro's - BBS CH-R's - BMWP Drexler LSD - TMC Piggyback - M4 LCA's - aFe Dry Filter

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tbt
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Re: 130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by tbt » Sat May 05, 2018 11:29 pm

This is what the car did before and after directly after the DMF and clutch was replaced. It happens when I fairly sharply bring the clutch up to bite point in 1st gear and then put the clutch quickly down again.
There is a lot of chatter but I did have the gear stick gaitor and rubber NVH collar below it removed (so a straight shot through to the gear linkage) which allows you to hear the noise much louder than if those parts weren't removed.



I managed to find some videos I took;
1) The old DMF/clutch before I removed it at 130,000 mileage.



2) The new DMF/clutch when it would have been 15,000 miles old (gearbox was off as I was replacing the box due to a nasty grinding noise above 65mph)


As far as I remember, when fitting the new DMF, i don't think it was any different in terms of rotational free play and axial rock, compared to 15,000 miles old as shown in the video.

The Quaife was installed by Central Alxe Services in Birmingham. I didn't actually ask for a backlash figure for the install, however the owner who had worked on it said they had had some difficulty at first in getting enough backlash into it! But said that they had got there in the end.

I've driven 4 other 130i's in the past although none within the last year, but don't remember any of them behaving quite like mine does.
I'm not sure if because of my upgrades the stiffness of some of the parts are working against me, or if it's just a case of a bad part in there somewhere.
I'm not particularly keen on the single mass flywheel option as I know it gives a very noisy and annoying gearbox chatter.
2006 E87 130i BMWP Parts-[Exhaust/Intake/Fr & Rr Brakes/Strut Brace/SS Kit]
M3 Parts-[Rear Subframe/Rear upper arms/Front Tension & LCA]
Quaife LSD, Bilstein B12 kit, Megan Racing toe arms, E46 M3 trans mounts, CDV delete

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marco_polo
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Re: 130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by marco_polo » Sun May 06, 2018 11:09 am

Thinking out loud, could a different DMF be a compromise? No idea if a different version would even bolt up?

A 123d DMF is probably designed for higher torque inputs?? Might offer you less rotational flex??
Silver F21 M135i - ManBox - HK - Adaptive + Eibach Pro's - BBS CH-R's - BMWP Drexler LSD - TMC Piggyback - M4 LCA's - aFe Dry Filter

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AP1
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Re: 130i drivetrain throttle bounce

Post by AP1 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:51 pm

LUK have an app which tells you the specs for free play in all dmfs if you want to know how much there should be.

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