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Clutch Judder?

194K views 957 replies 268 participants last post by  Tennant 
#1 ·
Apidae,

this sounds like a well known problem that occurred on the E36 3 Series. Clucth Judder is exactly the term that it is referred to.

I don't know if it is the same problem, but on the E36 (and I had it) it only occurred when the engine was warm and had been running for a while. It also only occurred in first and reverse, and basically was due to a, either, asbestos clutch plate thing, or non asbestos clutch plate thing (can't exactly remember).

After inital complaints with the E36, BMW changed their warranty to exclude this plate (very sneeky)

I severly doubt that this problem is still occuring today, but maybe check to see if it only happens when the engine is warm - if it persists, take it to the dealer again
 
#928 ·
What sort of mileage will BMW baulk at a clutch change under waranty?.
My E81 is just under 3yrs old but a bit leggy at 47k and has some clutch judder when cold. Its not terrible but noticable and I thought it was just me not being used to the car.
I anyone had a result at higher miles or will I just get a "wear & tear so go away" answer.
 
#929 ·
zooks said:
What sort of mileage will BMW baulk at a clutch change under waranty?.
My E81 is just under 3yrs old but a bit leggy at 47k and has some clutch judder when cold. Its not terrible but noticable and I thought it was just me not being used to the car.
I anyone had a result at higher miles or will I just get a "wear & tear so go away" answer.
I got my clutch changed under warranty at 41k miles, initially got the rubbish 'wear & tear excuse' which I rejected.
 
#930 ·
hello, I have a e90 320d that has been serviced by bmw from its birth with their service plan which has just expiered. My car has suffered from the clutch judder when pulling away, as many people on here I thought this was down to my driving style. What is the process of getting this checked? WIll I have to pay the dealership for the initial diagnosis.
 
#933 ·
Burn the clutch a little, if the judder is bad, I find it temperature dependent, and maybe moisture build up on the friction plates in the cold mornings.

stick it in 4th (handbrake on) and ride the clutch a little, this will solve the issue temporally...I did this at 58,000 miles my car is sitting on 123,500 miles now, and has just started it again after my jaunt from Italy last week, kind of got use to it.

47k is not "leggy" by any means :lol2:
 
#934 ·
kmorgan said:
kmorgan said:
Hi, I brought my 2008 120d (E87) MSport at the beginning of the year, after a few weeks of driving I began to suspect it's suffering with "clutch judder".
At first I thought it was just me taking a while to settle into the car after driving a 2000 Golf GTI 20V for seven years.
The 120d isn't yet four years old and has covered 35K miles.
I started to get annoyed with the judder problem.

I found on another forum a technique on moving off from a stand still - which is my only issue either from cold or normal operating temperature.
- When moving off, get the clutch to the biting point with zero throttle.
- So the car is just starting to move.
- Then press the throttle.
This technique does help.

I decided to contact my two local dealers to see what they say however, from what I read replacing the Clutch (and sometimes Flywheel) is only a short term 'fix', updating firmware only masks the problem.

I telephoned both my local dealers. Both seemed helpful on the phone explaining it's best to have the firmware updated first. Even if the update doesn't cure the judder it still will need doing if the clutch and flywheel is replaced at a later date.
I took the car in to be assessed. After the assessment it was decided to update the firmware, cost £144 inc. VAT.
The result was an immediate improvement however, didn't eliminate the fault completely. After two weeks, 250miles the judder was worse than ever.

The car went back to be assessed again, this time it was decided to replace the clutch and flywheel. BMW UK picked up the cost of the parts (as goodwill due to the car's low mileage), I paid labour, cost £560 inc. VAT. The work/job comes with a 2 year parts and labour warranty.

The replacement clutch and flywheel has completely transformed the car and after six weeks 1000 miles is still going strong.
I was told by the dealer they've done around 10 - 12 jobs like this in the past year. I was also told the clutch is a 'different' one that's only become available this year.

Overall I'm happy with the new clutch and flywheel transforming the car to what it should be. I brought the car from an independent dealer, even though this clutch judder has cost me £700 I'm still financially better off than buying the car from a main dealer. I'm getting 2MPG better fuel consumption (51MPG) and the firmware update is a total firmware update.

I was also very impressed with the BMW dealer - workshop and staff.
Thought I'd provide an update.
After 18 months / 15K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues and overall I'm a happy BMW owner. Fuel consumption nudged up to 52MPG.
Another update.
After 3 years / 24K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues.
 
#935 ·
Hi guys,

Just doing some searching about this clutch judder issue. I'm in the middle of rebuilding my engine after the timing chain failed on my 2011 e91 320d M-Sport.

The clutch is very different. It's 228mm as opposed to the 240mm fitted from new and it has a sprung loaded, floating plate attached. I suppose the 240mm offered too much friction for the torque on the 2.0d, so this is a little less aggressive. The added floating plate is not fixed to anything so must literally be there to oppose any judder as it happens. I've got pictures of the old & new clutch kits if anyone wants to see them. DMF is a carbon copy of the original.

p.s. Factory fitted clutch & DMF is made by LUK and that's the brand I'm refitting.
 
#936 ·
When replaced my factory 2008 DMF and clutch last year, a LUK DMF and clutch went in, and it had a modified damper on it (a revised manufacturer part) this solved my clutch judder.
 
#937 ·
Hi Guys/Gals

Im trying to diagnose the problem i'm having with my 2007 120i. Its a bit hard trying to compare to most of everyone here as most of you are in the UK where i am in New Zealand. By the sounds of things I think this might be the issue.

I have a couple of queries though, Is this "Clutch Judder" possible to happen in a Automatic Transmission. Also is it possible in a Petrol engine, as i see most people here are having the issue in the Diesel engines.

Unfortunately i'm having to let my Baby go after 2 years and a lot of KMs on the clock.

Please excuse me if these questions seem dumb, i'm not the best technical person when it comes to engines but trying my best to learn.

Thanks in advance for all the help :D

Cheers,
 
#938 ·
PyroFlux said:
Hi Guys/Gals

Im trying to diagnose the problem i'm having with my 2007 120i. Its a bit hard trying to compare to most of everyone here as most of you are in the UK where i am in New Zealand. By the sounds of things I think this might be the issue.

I have a couple of queries though, Is this "Clutch Judder" possible to happen in a Automatic Transmission. Also is it possible in a Petrol engine, as i see most people here are having the issue in the Diesel engines.

Unfortunately i'm having to let my Baby go after 2 years and a lot of KMs on the clock.

Please excuse me if these questions seem dumb, i'm not the best technical person when it comes to engines but trying my best to learn.

Thanks in advance for all the help :D

Cheers,
The short answer is no, this issue wouldn't been seen in an automatic.
 
#939 ·
Morning everyone, sorry to drag up the dreaded clutch judder issue.

I brought a Used approved BMW 120D from BMW Sunning-dale last August 2015, full service history with 27,000 on the clock. I came with 1 year warranty. During the 1st year the car juddered a couple of times over the whole year. I didn't think anything of it until it got much colder and the judder started worse than ever. Now its' the usual intermittent issue, where some days it's fine others its not.

Long and short of this it went back to BMW in Feburary this year to have the fault looked at and they couldn't replicate the fault and recommended taking the gearbox off for inspection. at a cost of about £650 to me.

I Have read all the threads on this and mentioned this to BMW, I need to know how I can Get BMW to admit to the New Redesigned clutch.

I also have a someone who is doing investigations for me on the car, and they are willing to cover the cost of an independent engineers report, They will come and take it for a test drive. My worry is it won't do it on the test drive and then where will I be.

I need to get bmw to cover the cost of removing the gearbox to look at the clutch.

Any advice would be greatly received - don't think I will ever buy a BMW again !!

kmorgan said:
kmorgan said:
kmorgan said:
Hi, I brought my 2008 120d (E87) MSport at the beginning of the year, after a few weeks of driving I began to suspect it's suffering with "clutch judder".
At first I thought it was just me taking a while to settle into the car after driving a 2000 Golf GTI 20V for seven years.
The 120d isn't yet four years old and has covered 35K miles.
I started to get annoyed with the judder problem.

I found on another forum a technique on moving off from a stand still - which is my only issue either from cold or normal operating temperature.
- When moving off, get the clutch to the biting point with zero throttle.
- So the car is just starting to move.
- Then press the throttle.
This technique does help.

I decided to contact my two local dealers to see what they say however, from what I read replacing the Clutch (and sometimes Flywheel) is only a short term 'fix', updating firmware only masks the problem.

I telephoned both my local dealers. Both seemed helpful on the phone explaining it's best to have the firmware updated first. Even if the update doesn't cure the judder it still will need doing if the clutch and flywheel is replaced at a later date.
I took the car in to be assessed. After the assessment it was decided to update the firmware, cost £144 inc. VAT.
The result was an immediate improvement however, didn't eliminate the fault completely. After two weeks, 250miles the judder was worse than ever.

The car went back to be assessed again, this time it was decided to replace the clutch and flywheel. BMW UK picked up the cost of the parts (as goodwill due to the car's low mileage), I paid labour, cost £560 inc. VAT. The work/job comes with a 2 year parts and labour warranty.

The replacement clutch and flywheel has completely transformed the car and after six weeks 1000 miles is still going strong.
I was told by the dealer they've done around 10 - 12 jobs like this in the past year. I was also told the clutch is a 'different' one that's only become available this year.

Overall I'm happy with the new clutch and flywheel transforming the car to what it should be. I brought the car from an independent dealer, even though this clutch judder has cost me £700 I'm still financially better off than buying the car from a main dealer. I'm getting 2MPG better fuel consumption (51MPG) and the firmware update is a total firmware update.

I was also very impressed with the BMW dealer - workshop and staff.
Thought I'd provide an update.
After 18 months / 15K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues and overall I'm a happy BMW owner. Fuel consumption nudged up to 52MPG.
Another update.
After 3 years / 24K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues.
 
#940 ·
Tennant said:
Morning everyone, sorry to drag up the dreaded clutch judder issue.

I brought a Used approved BMW 120D from BMW Sunning-dale last August 2015, full service history with 27,000 on the clock. I came with 1 year warranty. During the 1st year the car juddered a couple of times over the whole year. I didn't think anything of it until it got much colder and the judder started worse than ever. Now its' the usual intermittent issue, where some days it's fine others its not.

Long and short of this it went back to BMW in Feburary this year to have the fault looked at and they couldn't replicate the fault and recommended taking the gearbox off for inspection. at a cost of about £650 to me.

I Have read all the threads on this and mentioned this to BMW, I need to know how I can Get BMW to admit to the New Redesigned clutch.

I also have a someone who is doing investigations for me on the car, and they are willing to cover the cost of an independent engineers report, They will come and take it for a test drive. My worry is it won't do it on the test drive and then where will I be.

I need to get bmw to cover the cost of removing the gearbox to look at the clutch.

Any advice would be greatly received - don't think I will ever buy a BMW again !!

kmorgan said:
kmorgan said:
Thought I'd provide an update.
After 18 months / 15K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues and overall I'm a happy BMW owner. Fuel consumption nudged up to 52MPG.
Another update.
After 3 years / 24K miles the new clutch and flywheel are still going strong with no issues.
Can't help with the BMW claim, but I lived with my clutch judder for many years until it eventually failed (DMF) it's the flywheel that judders not the clutch - the Flywheel has the modified damper on ones fitted after 2008 in my case as my car was 58 plate (it said revised damper on box) from Eurocarparts...Was a OEM LUK part.

In the short term, this is what I did until it failed completly at 130k - get car in third/fourth gear handbrake on - then burn the clutch/ride the clutch not much that your smelling burning, but just enough - this will rub the clutch contact plates a little, as it is believed aswell moisture gets on these and is worse in colder temps.

This worked for me for few years.
 
#941 ·
Thanks for the advice,

I've got an independent engineer coming to test drive the car in a few weeks! The trouble is the fault is intermittent! The other week it was so bad my girlfriend was nearly sick!

I wouldn't mind so much if I hadn't spent the extra premium to buy approved used, I suppose that doesn't count for much these days!

My plan is to have the clutch and flywheel changed, and get pictures of the new and old parts! Then take them to the small claims court!

If they have redesigned the part it was clearly a manufacturing fault! Weather it's the DMF or the clutch. They both need to be replaced! Most forums say it's the clutch that has been revised! Would be good to find out!
 
#942 ·
As you know, this is a common issue and one that BMW MUST know about but will often REFUSE to acknowledge, despite many trips to the dealer. The last time I went in they again said they couldn't replicate the issue and offered to take everything apart to check, but of course if they found nothing wrong they would charge the cost of the work to me. Although I'm confident the clutch should be rectified I'm not confident that the cowboy techs BMW employ will be able to find an issue. Not wanting to risk being stung with a large bill for work that should be investigated and rectified under warranty I have had to live with it for at least a year. Needless to say I won't be buying another one of these 'premium' cars in the future.
I've spent so long in the dealership over the last couple of years with problems ranging from TPMS to steering rack, suspension, turbo heat shield etc that I have often heard other customers dropping their cars off with the same intermittent clutch judder issues, and to hear them (or others) be fobbed off by same old excuse - the techs couldn't replicate the issue. Those guys must constantly be fobbing off BMW customers with the excuses. It's beyond a joke.

Even if the 1series itself hadn't put me off the brand, the dealerships' poor problem finding skills and blatant tactics for dismissing their customers killed it completely.
 
#943 ·
Well I have been pushing like mad with this, a little movement but not much.

BMW uk are not willing to help until the gearbox comes off, I refuse to pay for this I have sent a complaint to the MD of the dealer where I brought the car, got a call the next day. I'm waiting for the independent review next week and we'll go from there. If I have to pay the £2000 to get it done I will and I'll be taking them to the small claims court.

My aim is to get a photo of the clutch coming out and then a photo of the new part before it goes in. I've not yet worked out how I will do this. But I will find away.

I've spoke to A1 clutches and they confirmed the fix was the revised damper and also a local independent BMW specialist that confirmed the new revised clutch will fix it.

I wouldn't mind if I hadn't brought a used approved car, with exceptionally low mileage, and full service history. Although If I'd brought it from a second hand back street garage, they would have probably treated me better than BMW has.
 
#944 ·
Afraid I suspect you may end up having to pay for a clutch and flywheel. Maybe the dealer/BMW GB may offer some goodwill.
If you do buy the parts yourself, CarParts4less are often the cheapest with a discount code. It's a fairly easy job as clutches go, it's doable in a couple of hours by an experienced mechanic.
 
#945 ·
MontegoBlue said:
Burn the clutch a little, if the judder is bad, I find it temperature dependent, and maybe moisture build up on the friction plates in the cold mornings.

stick it in 4th (handbrake on) and ride the clutch a little, this will solve the issue temporally...I did this at 58,000 miles my car is sitting on 123,500 miles now, and has just started it again after my jaunt from Italy last week, kind of got use to it.

47k is not "leggy" by any means :lol2:
This actually works? My juddar is not bad but noticeable, tried it just now in 3rd gear and it seems to stop the judder. How long does it last for and can it make it worse in the long run??
 
#947 ·
AP1 said:
How long will it last? Who knows? It will wear some of the clutch away. The best long term fix is a new clutch and flywheel.
(Doing this technique every now and then) My flywheel lasted until 135k it's the flywheel that's the issue, I got new clutch fitted at the same time, wear was completely minimal when they swapped it out. Once swapped it was perfect, up until 170k when I sold the car :cry:
 
#949 ·
Yes the clutch was revised at some point after 2008 - when I bought my new LUK clutch from EuroCarParts, it stated on the box (revised damper) so this may be what helps reduce the juddering.
 
#950 ·
Tennant said:
Just to update, BMW have had my car for 3 weeks nearly. I ordered a second independent engineer to look at the car a week ago.

When I was in the workshop at BMW when my clutch came out the Technician admitted there was a new clutch. The saga continues.

Also just to add Here are what I believe is the new part number. 21 20 7 638 466

Did they sort it in the end ?
 
#951 ·
Issue finally sorted.

BMW Fitted the revised clutch and a new flywheel, they tried to get away with just fitting the clutch. To eliminate all issues and as normally adviced by most clutch specialist, it's good to change the flywheel at the same time.

Because it was brought from a dealership and the issue was mentioned within the warranty, which they refused to admit. Also had a full BMW service history.

BMW uk paid half of the parts and then BMW dealership did the labour at a very good rate. So the total price was highly reduced. Not had a hint of judder since.

Also after paying for this and the getting the car back, had some advice legally that I shouldn't have had to pay for the work, as I had and independent engineers report that said there was a fault and the BMW Mechanic admitted to me and the indepenedant engineer that there was a modified clutch.

Long and short of it and after a long period of waiting got the amount paid refunded.

I will upload pictures of the old and new clutch later.
 
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