Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - Ombudsman rule in my favour!

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Re: Official BMW Update: M140i - Whine Video - It's normal :(

Post by enthusiastowned » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:11 pm

Hi guys,

Brief update. The car is back from the independent, however I've not driven the car since August.

Essentially BMW FS have stuck to their original response. Where I'm saying the gearbox is compromised and BMW have failed to repair, replace or refund on a faulty so they have failed to adhere to their contractual obligations.

The Financial Ombudsman are making their final decision, but i'm not holding my breath, they seem completely incompetent and in favour of the business. But i've gone this far so might as well let them finish.

BMW have threatened to to submit a default notice as they believe the car is modified, however other than a few lines of statement, they haven't really explained themselves so I feel it's just a dirty tactic to try and remove themselves from their obligations or scare me to stop.

Anyway, here is the report I promised earlier. This is the report created by a BMW Regional Technical Manager (I believe Andrew Pringle?) following my third and final gearbox leak and breakdown where BMW UK accused tampering as the cause of the leak.

Id like your opinion on this report and if you think it's as just as much bullshit as I do.

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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by Locoblade » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 pm

Well on the face of that report it does look like someone has taken that pipe off at some point doesn't it, unless you believe they're planting evidence? I've read this thread on and off over the months so can't remember the whole saga but am I right in saying that when that report was written the car had already been into at least one if not two dealers to try and find the leak and fix it? If that's the case then it doesn't seem unreasonable that a hose like that would be detached, checked and then put back on by a tech if it looked like it could be the culprit so not sure how much weight they can put on the fact there's small marks on the pipe etc to prove you tampered with it.

As to the "observations" about coding additions, like that has any relevance whatsoever to a leaking gearbox!
Last edited by Locoblade on Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by Paul CS » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:59 pm

So how do they know it was not leaking from new for sure? It’s a bit of a crazy suggestion that you pulled off that pipe and slashed the O ring.

Regarding the oil loss, are they saying that you can run with 4 litres low and the gearbox will be fine? That’s a lot of over capacity if so. Ideally you need ZF to comment me thinks. Failing that, try and find a maintenance manual stating minimum an maximum oil levels.

Look at this https://www.zf.com/usa_canada/en_us/cor ... e_oil.html ... and the warning next to step 6.

FWIW and speaking as a Chartered Mechanical Engineer in the maintenance world, loosing 4 litres of oil compromises the gearbox. I’d now be looking for an independent expert opinion.

Hope that helps.

Good luck buddy.

Paul

PS the coding that has been done is a red herring.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by enthusiastowned » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:29 pm

Locoblade wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 pm
Well on the face of that report it does look like someone has taken that pipe off at some point doesn't it, unless you believe they're planting evidence? I've read this thread on and off over the months so can't remember the whole saga but am I right in saying that when that report was written the car had already been into at least one if not two dealers to try and find the leak and fix it? If that's the case then it doesn't seem unreasonable that a hose like that would be detached, checked and then put back on by a tech if it looked like it could be the culprit so not sure how much weight they can put on the fact there's small marks on the pipe etc to prove you tampered with it.

As to the "observations" about coding additions, like that has any relevance whatsoever to a leaking gearbox!
I absolutely agree.

By the time this report was written the car had been inspected by Sytner Sheffield numerous times over the course of months, BMW Assist once and Stratstone Chesterfield once. The pipe in question had been removed for a week before this report was written. It's absolutely possible the pipe was scuffed during one of the may inspections or even upon it's final removal. A superficially scuffed pipe doesn't mean or prove anything in my opinion.

Interestingly, there is no evidence anywhere of the pipe being scuffed prior to its final removal, even the photo's showing the pipe fitted in that report don't show any scratches, the only evidence is photo's once it's been removed. Additionally, if you look at the part number sticker - the sticker is immaculate on the photo's with the pipe fitted and roughed up once it's been removed, which would suggest man handling by BMW once the pipe had been removed.

And the coding holds no relevance and what they've mentioned aren't coded anyway. At the time I mentioned its their 'get out of jail free card' and they'll use it to wrangle out of their responsibility. They've now confirmed this. Such a low move by BMW.
Paul CS wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:59 pm
So how do they know it was not leaking from new for sure? It’s a bit of a crazy suggestion that you pulled off that pipe and slashed the O ring.

Regarding the oil loss, are they saying that you can run with 4 litres low and the gearbox will be fine? That’s a lot of over capacity if so. Ideally you need ZF to comment me thinks. Failing that, try and find a maintenance manual stating minimum an maximum oil levels.

Look at this https://www.zf.com/usa_canada/en_us/cor ... e_oil.html ... and the warning next to step 6.

FWIW and speaking as a Chartered Mechanical Engineer in the maintenance world, loosing 4 litres of oil compromises the gearbox. I’d now be looking for an independent expert opinion.

Hope that helps.

Good luck buddy.

Paul

PS the coding that has been done is a red herring.
The car leaked within 2 weeks of ownership and it threw up a iDrive drivetrain error, it then a leaked further two times over the course of the next 8 months. It's a massive jump by BMW to ignore the fact it's been leaking and whining then suggest it's been tampered with on the final leak!

I have already sent that ZF document to BMW UK, Sytner and BMW FS - They all ignored it. I mean, fully blanked my correspondence. ZF themselves refuse to comment due to contractual obligations with BMW. The FOS asked ZF and failed to receive a response and BMW FS also failed to receive a response from ZF - any alarm bells ringing yet?

An independent has inspected the car and agrees that the gearbox is compromised. BMW refuse to acknowledge the independent report. BMW have openly stated they will only recognise a report from BMW. Simply speaking, the independent comprehensively stated the responsibilities of the gearbox oil and essentially stated with the breakdown I had, brass components or the clutch packs will have likely burnt out. BMW state that after a 8 mile test drive the car performs normal so it's fine. :lol:

And yes, the coding is a red herring. I believe a shill tactic by BMW to persuade me to stop this complaint.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by sawda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Cant beleive they are dragging this out, terrible, but I would say you have got them by the balls. The photgraphic evidence supports your claim and theor failure to diagnose. This is david vs goliath and were all rooting for david

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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by Kerr » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:18 pm

Not a good situation at all.

When BMW accuse you of modifying the car, they aren't suggesting a JB4(Or similar) just the things listed?

Sounds like all your hopes are with the financial ombudsmen with the way BMW and BMW finance are digging their heels in.

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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by danr » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:34 pm

It's always the little guy getting f*cked over by these companies. I hope for your sake the financial ombudsman see the complete shambles from BMWs part and report in your favour.

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Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by NISFAN » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:07 pm

Do you have the O ring?

Reason I ask is because toroid shaped mouldings often have an inherent weakness in the form of a ‘weld line’. A split on the weld line could look like a clean ‘cut’ to a casual examination by a non expert. An advanced examination would reveal whether the o ring was really cut as they suggest vs a poorly fitted or badly formed o ring.

Even in the case of weld line less forming process, a microscope examination will be able to tell the difference between a cut vs a propagated tear.

Im sure a judge would find it far fetched that someone would deliberately sabotage their own car in such a manner.


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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by sawda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:52 pm

NISFAN wrote:Do you have the O ring?

Reason I ask is because toroid shaped mouldings often have an inherent weakness in the form of a ‘weld line’. A split on the weld line could look like a clean ‘cut’ to a casual examination by a non expert. An advanced examination would reveal whether the o ring was really cut as they suggest vs a poorly fitted or badly formed o ring.

Even in the case of weld line less forming process, a microscope examination will be able to tell the difference between a cut vs a propagated tear.

Im sure a judge would find it far fetched that someone would deliberately sabotage their own car in such a manner.


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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by OneTwenty » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:42 pm

Those coding options are nothing to do with the gearbox failure, but I guess BMW are just trying to imply that if you’ve made those mods then you could have made mechanical mods also - a very low trick to pull by BMW. :(

Why do they think somebody would deliberately cut an o ring and damage their own car! 🙁
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by CynicalRobot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:05 am

Seems pretty clear to me... car leaked after 2 weeks of ownership. Running a brand new gearbox on low oil is going to damage it (well, any gearbox for that matter imo) and BMW's failure to spot the root cause in the first instance has over time carried on and damaged the box. Even if its ever so slightly.

Cant believe they are fighting you over it :(


That noise in your original post sounds just like my last car after it lost gearbox oil after a pipe burst, i didnt notice and carried on driving the car till eventually a warning came up. Ever since having it fixed there is now always a massive whine in 4th and 5th gear. I dont have that car anymore though and it was a Ford.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by enthusiastowned » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:53 am

sawda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:42 pm
Cant beleive they are dragging this out, terrible, but I would say you have got them by the balls. The photgraphic evidence supports your claim and theor failure to diagnose. This is david vs goliath and were all rooting for david

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That's what it feels like and looks like to me. The Independent suggested that it was BMW's failure to diagnose which caused the final failure. If it had been caught earlier none of this would have happened.
Kerr wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:18 pm
Not a good situation at all.

When BMW accuse you of modifying the car, they aren't suggesting a JB4(Or similar) just the things listed?

Sounds like all your hopes are with the financial ombudsmen with the way BMW and BMW finance are digging their heels in.
The first accusation was via a phone call where a BMW Representative mentioned coding and engine parameters and kept talking about the stop-start system. I thought she meant re-map. She wasn't very technical so I don't think she actually understood herself.

Then I received that report which listed the four specific items.

This is literally all the information I have, BMW have ignored my request for clarification.

BMW for some reason have really faought this complaint.
NISFAN wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:07 pm
Do you have the O ring?

Reason I ask is because toroid shaped mouldings often have an inherent weakness in the form of a ‘weld line’. A split on the weld line could look like a clean ‘cut’ to a casual examination by a non expert. An advanced examination would reveal whether the o ring was really cut as they suggest vs a poorly fitted or badly formed o ring.

Even in the case of weld line less forming process, a microscope examination will be able to tell the difference between a cut vs a propagated tear.

Im sure a judge would find it far fetched that someone would deliberately sabotage their own car in such a manner.


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I don't have the o-ring and I've never seen it, only via that report which was originally a PDF and quality wasn't great anyway.

But, if you look really really closely at the cross-section, it's not actually a clean cut at all. about 1/3 from the left there is a clear 'ridge' vertically through the section. And the whole cross section looks curved. It appears to me it was a tear which partway through changes direction. This matches with a slow leak which got worse until it drastically failed. I.e. a small tear, got worse and became a full split.

However, BMW and the Independent both said that with this failure the oil loss and subsequent breakdown would have been instantaneous. I was a good 10-15 miles away from home, in a poor lit country road.

Do BMW imply that the pipe was tampered with, at dusk, with no tools; at the side of the road?

OneTwenty wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:42 pm
Those coding options are nothing to do with the gearbox failure, but I guess BMW are just trying to imply that if you’ve made those mods then you could have made mechanical mods also - a very low trick to pull by BMW. :(

Why do they think somebody would deliberately cut an o ring and damage their own car! 🙁
Within the Finance Agreement there is a clause, which clearly states that if the vehicle is modified, BMW can submit a Default Notice which ends the contract. I.e BMW take the car back, prep it, sell it and charge the difference between the sale price and balance owed (plus costs). I believe BMW are threatening this.

It's thier get out of jail free card I believe.
CynicalRobot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:05 am
Seems pretty clear to me... car leaked after 2 weeks of ownership. Running a brand new gearbox on low oil is going to damage it (well, any gearbox for that matter imo) and BMW's failure to spot the root cause in the first instance has over time carried on and damaged the box. Even if its ever so slightly.

Cant believe they are fighting you over it :(


That noise in your original post sounds just like my last car after it lost gearbox oil after a pipe burst, i didnt notice and carried on driving the car till eventually a warning came up. Ever since having it fixed there is now always a massive whine in 4th and 5th gear. I dont have that car anymore though and it was a Ford.
Yep, that's my current argument.

BMW say that as the car performs fine now, there is no fault. I'm saying that the gearbox has been compromised (weakened) and it could fail at any given moment; making the car unsafe. I don't want to be on a motorway when a bush decides to sh*t its pants and the gearbox seizes. Yes, that's dramatic; but possible - and that responsibility is on me.

ZF state the gerabox wll have been damaged by low oil loss. The independent states the same. BMW refuses to comment and repeats the rhetoric that it performs normally (via a 8-mile test drive).

My car has a clear history of leaks from the same area, other gearbox from the same family have a history of leaking from the same area according to other owners. My gearbox whined when the oil was low and whined less when the fluid was topped up (allegedly it no longer whines). It's all obviously related. BMW's failure to identify and rectify has caused this position.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by fufty1 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:06 am

I can't believe BMW will only accept a report from BMW. Insane.

The ombudsman won't take it seriously unless it gets a lot of media attention etc. They probably don't even understand what they are looking at.

As we have said time and time again on here, the only options I believe you have at this stage are to either accept the car or take legal action. BMW don't seem to be backing down, and don't really have any incentive to either considering no legal action has been taken.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by Compactpete » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:31 am

If you want to fight this out of principle then you MUST get a Solicitor. Remember if it goes to court the Judge would only listen to the technical opinion of an INDEPENDANT specialist, not yours or BMW's. Though generally the specialst would be one that both parties agree to use.

Personally I would just sell the car, take the loss and put it behind you. Enjoy a bit of BMW slating along the way if you want via social media. Life's too short.

Take some consolation that this has cost BMW a few quid to get this far.
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Re: Updated: M140i - Gearbox whine/leaks and a roof rattle - BMW are fighting me. BMW Report Uploaded

Post by Kerr » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:56 am

When other people have been threatened with a default notice for breaking the PCP terms it's a full settlement they've been given.

If BMW deem the warranty invalid they can't exactly take it back and sell it as a car that meets their criteria for warranty.

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