Crank, No Start with a twist

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Manufactured from 2004 to 2013

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DH91
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by DH91 »

everson38 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:03 pm
DH91 wrote:Sometimes when changing the battery (I experienced this on the e92) because of a previous low battery it can cause issues with the cas to DME relationship.

In the case I came across the cas unit had been fried because my mate had constantly tried to start the car. Once the cas was cloned and a DME to CAS synchronisation ran the car would start up fine.
Thanks for reply, so bare with me, I'm assuming if it is this issue the "cas" is a removable module / box like an ECU box that you copy and put back in the car, how much is it to get a cloned CAS module / box and have it re aligned?

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My friend used this guy based in Kingston https://www.carprogrammer.co.uk/.

Your CAS module is usually under your steering column, i.e where on most cars in the passenger seat you may have a spare cigarette lighter socket.

The cloning etc was £150 I think, my friend did provide him however with a 2nd hand CAS unit that i'm pretty sure he then knocked £50 off his usual price so you're talking £200 all in.

The CAS/DME sync you can do in ISTA (We did this using Launch software) so in theory if you know anyone with ISTA/Launch and most likely similar tools it could be free or a small fee to someone. Wouldn't of thought it would be more than £30-£50 even if you visited a garage.

Have you had any steering lock related error codes pop up at any point? think on the E92 it was originally a yellow steering wheel symbol that then turns red and the car won't start?
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by everson38 »


DH91 wrote:
everson38 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:03 pm
DH91 wrote:Sometimes when changing the battery (I experienced this on the e92) because of a previous low battery it can cause issues with the cas to DME relationship.

In the case I came across the cas unit had been fried because my mate had constantly tried to start the car. Once the cas was cloned and a DME to CAS synchronisation ran the car would start up fine.
Thanks for reply, so bare with me, I'm assuming if it is this issue the "cas" is a removable module / box like an ECU box that you copy and put back in the car, how much is it to get a cloned CAS module / box and have it re aligned?

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My friend used this guy based in Kingston https://www.carprogrammer.co.uk/.

Your CAS module is usually under your steering column, i.e where on most cars in the passenger seat you may have a spare cigarette lighter socket.

The cloning etc was £150 I think, my friend did provide him however with a 2nd hand CAS unit that i'm pretty sure he then knocked £50 off his usual price so you're talking £200 all in.

The CAS/DME sync you can do in ISTA (We did this using Launch software) so in theory if you know anyone with ISTA/Launch and most likely similar tools it could be free or a small fee to someone. Wouldn't of thought it would be more than £30-£50 even if you visited a garage.

Have you had any steering lock related error codes pop up at any point? think on the E92 it was originally a yellow steering wheel symbol that then turns red and the car won't start?
Ok thanks for this, no I never had any steering fault codes arise on the scan tool but I can not remember off top of head if I had a little yellow steering wheel pop up on the dash, (I assume that's what you mean) I'd have to have a.look again.

The guy your recommend is way too far for me, but to know the type of person in looking for is it an "auto lock Smith" a d lastly I'm assuming a whole new cas unit would be expensive, so is this a eBay / junk yard source and then the auto lock Smith can wipe and copy onto the 2nd hand oneImage

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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

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everson38 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:34 pm
I hear what your saying for sure, can your theory take into account why with the weak battery and a starter whack it started up, but now with a stronger battery with a whack it only cranks?

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Fair point, I had missed that. As the other guys are saying it's possible something else has failed as well (maybe it only failed after your first attempts to start the car/or while changing the battery maybe - possible current surge?). It's not that uncommon for old electrical parts to fail when a failing powerr supply is replaced, as the voltages/currents go up to where they're supposed to be it can cause an old component elsewhere in the circuit to pop. (not talking cars specifically, just electrical circuits in general).

Not impossible that there's a combination of problems going on. I mean purely logically you shouldn't need to wack the starter to get it to work, so there's clearly something going on with the starter motor.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

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CoupeSilver wrote:
everson38 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:34 pm
I hear what your saying for sure, can your theory take into account why with the weak battery and a starter whack it started up, but now with a stronger battery with a whack it only cranks?

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Fair point, I had missed that. As the other guys are saying it's possible something else has failed as well (maybe it only failed after your first attempts to start the car/or while changing the battery maybe - possible current surge?). It's not that uncommon for old electrical parts to fail when a failing powerr supply is replaced, as the voltages/currents go up to where they're supposed to be it can cause an old component elsewhere in the circuit to pop. (not talking cars specifically, just electrical circuits in general).

Not impossible that there's a combination of problems going on. I mean purely logically you shouldn't need to wack the starter to get it to work, so there's clearly something going on with the starter motor.
Yes for sure I couldn't agree, I think I need to go back to basics and clean up all the power and ground straps, I've just got on the floor and saw the two cables at the back looked like this? Not sure if bad enough to cause issue. The car has taken a step back now and doesn't even crank today, well it did once but then the next few tries nothing, does anyone know where the earthing wire / points are in e87, want to try clean them also. I also got this on my scanner and read abit about terminal 50e , doesn't make quite sense to me but though t I would put out thereImageImageImage

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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by marco_polo »

Cables don't lok too bad to me.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by Octavius »

marco_polo wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:07 pm Cables don't lok too bad to me.
There’s enough corrosion on the left hand terminal to cause problems
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by everson38 »

marco_polo wrote:Cables don't lok too bad to me.
Yeah I thought the same. A small bit of corrosion but not making me think ImageImage. Do you have any idea where the earthing strap is, I found the negative terminal cable from the battery is bolted to the car in boot (see pic) and that seems ok but are there any more?.


UPDATE: I have recorded live data of the "terminal" data to see if anyone knows if there is anything concerning here:

[/IMG]Image

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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by marco_polo »

Octavius wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 pm
marco_polo wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:07 pm Cables don't lok too bad to me.
There’s enough corrosion on the left hand terminal to cause problems
It's throwing a 2F44 code, which means the immobiliser/CAS isn't paired with the DME, so it won’t/can't start. End of.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by everson38 »

marco_polo wrote:
Octavius wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 pm
marco_polo wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:07 pm Cables don't lok too bad to me.
There’s enough corrosion on the left hand terminal to cause problems
It's throwing a 2F44 code, which means the immobiliser/CAS isn't paired with the DME, so it won’t/can't start.
Yes I agree with you, but my concern is that it had these codes before and it started up before with a hit tonthe starter, so I'm just trying to diagnose correctly.

I don't have any of the BMW level diagnostic kit, can I realign / sync this myself and if so what would be needed?

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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by marco_polo »

You need BMW compatible scanner/software, which has the function to “Align” or “Synchronize” your DME to your CAS. Inpa or Ista laptop software should do it, iirc.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

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CoupeSilver wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:53 pm So you physically hit the starter motor and it will then crank? Sounds like a partially seized bearing in the motor to me. I mean from a logical perspective hitting a motor which has a rotating spindle through the middle that results in the motor being able to spin freely when before it didn't points to something physicaly stopping the motor spinning rather than anything electrical. So either the spindle is partially seized or something has partially disloged inside the starter motor leading it to interfere with the core rotating.
Usually hitting the starter to get it to crank is a sign of worn brushes and a poor connection to the commutator, or a sticking solenoid. I had a long stick in my old 320d for this. Worked every time.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by Octavius »

Checking for an electrical supply to the starter motor with a multimeter would be my first job even before investigating fault codes just to rule it out of the equation.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by everson38 »

Octavius wrote:Checking for an electrical supply to the starter motor with a multimeter would be my first job even before investigating fault codes just to rule it out of the equation.
Ideas on how to test it, when the starter is so buried?

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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by CoupeSilver »

everson38 wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:28 pm
Octavius wrote:Checking for an electrical supply to the starter motor with a multimeter would be my first job even before investigating fault codes just to rule it out of the equation.
Ideas on how to test it, when the starter is so buried?

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In theory, if you measure the voltage accross the battery terminals directly when you attempt to start the car, if the electrical circuit to the starter (and it's electrical internals) are all fine, there should be a noticeable voltage drop as the starter attempts to draw current from the battery. I couldn't tell you how much of a voltage drop though, as a lot would depend on just how well specc'ed the battery is. To be honest though, that probably wouldn't help you much though because even a poor connection will still allow some current to flow and so you might still get a voltage drop across the battery. so without knowing what the drop is expected to be, what you see will be pretty meaningless. But it will at least let you know that there is at least a circuit.

There's a common earth bonding point in the engine bay, there was a post just the other day asking about it: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=136402 I don't know if that's every earth cable but it looks like it's a fair few. As "star earthing" is good practice in electric circuit design it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was the main earth bonding point for all the engine components.
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Re: Crank, No Start with a twist

Post by CoupeSilver »

Just found this on RealOEM:

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpa ... 2427549393

It would seem to imply that if the alternator is working then there won't be a problem on the live side of the starter motor at least, as it's a series circuit.

Image

NB: Also seem that the starter has it's own grounding strap (2 in that picture) direct from the motor, probably to the bulkhead or wing, so probably down in side the engine bay somewhere.
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