getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

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Dunc2610
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by Dunc2610 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:23 pm

wellhouse wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:31 pm
The RTA does a lot of things, but for DIY car audio users, it is really to help ensure that you have your x-overs and gains set at a level where you don't get gaps in frequencies between speakers or that your gains are not too low/high to get a balanced sound. Also helps to ensure that you are not trying to get your speakers to do jobs they were not designed for. There are 'house' curves that are generally accepted as a good basis to start from (but generally look similar to each other). Some are higher in bass/sub bass or lower in high frequency but these are subtle (normally). Everyone will have a different taste in sound/music but it is good to know you haven't got any frequency missing or exaggerated.

Personally i find a reasonably steep slope between about 80Hz and 130Hz gives you a solid drum beat and a slightly shallower slope in the mid range (approx 130Hz-2KHz) more musical. Some like the middle range slope flat/flatter but i find it tends to make the music sound kind of dull. Again a moderate slope on the the high frequency end stops the tweeters 'shouting' at you, but each to their own. 8)

On the M140 you can see that originally there was a big peak in the mid range, to an extent drowning out the low and high frequencies, if you are a music lover then you would probably be unhappy with this - particularly if you like it reasonably loud. :twisted:

Although i have a m perf exhaust fitted, i still like a good sound from the car stereo and if it just means spending a 'few' £'s (rather than going crazy) with a few simple mods, then i'm all for it. My car is only 6 months old so have to be a bit careful what i do in terms of warrantee. Because i have been doing this sort of thing quite a while, it is always good to know where you are starting from and be able to measure what effect each change has on the overall system. You can try to do it by ear - but!? - sound engineers use this kit for a reason. Hope this helps.
Would you say that simply amping the HK subs seperately is a good place to start, rather than going all in on the amp/sub etc?

wellhouse
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by wellhouse » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:47 pm

it will help to drive the bass lower but you can only put soo much through them before you start to overdrive the bmw woofers. If all you are looking for is slightly more bass, it will help, but you will get no sub bass 'kick'. :o If you put in better woofers and amp them, then you are probably spending the same money as putting in a decent sub. It really isn't difficult to do, it would take about an hour to fit once you order the bits in and if you saw my sub in real life, it has hardly taken any boot space.

I had toyed with putting 1 or 2 JL8w3v3 subs in instead, these only require 0.3cu/ft box and although they don't go quite as low (in a sealed box) , they are still a fast punchy sub. In a ported box they go very low Fb=35Hz - F3=41Hz they also have the benefit of being nearly an inch shallower. I've used them in several cars and they are excellent if space is a concern. I've fitted one currently to my son's car and everyone thinks it is a 12'' sub! It can also use a smaller amp, something like a JL XD300/1v2, a smaller amp means you wouldn't have to make the little amp shelf - it could be attached with velcro either to that back bulkhead next to the battery or in the space behind the trim the sub box fits in (out of sight). There are other combinations/manufacturers (hertz etc) which work well.
Last edited by wellhouse on Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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ollysteve
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by ollysteve » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:36 pm

That's a fab OEM looking install hats off sir!

Dunc2610
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by Dunc2610 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:50 pm

wellhouse wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:47 pm
it will help to drive the bass lower but you can only put soo much through them before you start to overdrive the bmw woofers. If all you are looking for is slightly more bass, it will help, but you will get no sub bass 'kick'. :o If you put in better woofers and amp them, then you are probably spending the same money as putting in a decent sub. It really isn't difficult to do, it would take about an hour to fit once you order the bits in and if you saw my sub in real life, it has hardly taken any boot space.

I had toyed with putting 1 or 2 JL8w3v3 subs in instead, these only require 0.3cu/ft box and although they don't go quite as low (in a sealed box) , they are still a fast punchy sub. In a ported box they go very low Fb=35Hz - F3=41Hz they also have the benefit of being nearly an inch shallower. I've used them in several cars and they are excellent if space is a concern. I've fitted one currently to my son's car and everyone thinks it is a 12'' sub! It can also use a smaller amp, something like a JL XD300/1v2, a smaller amp means you wouldn't have to make the little amp shelf - it could be attached with velcro either to that back bulkhead next to the battery or in the space behind the trim the sub box fits in (out of sight). There are other combinations/manufacturers (hertz etc) which work well.
I've never been all that fussed with loads of bass, the Pioneer ODR 12" sub I had wasn't geared up for big bass, but more fast and punchy. Space wouldn't be such an issue I don't think, as you've got it is perfect, although I'd be proper fearful of something perforating the cone without a grill or some kind of bars over the sub. With the 8" sub, you say running it ported would enable it to drop a lower, could you port the enclosure you bought (did you buy it or make it, I missed that bit, I know you covered it).

You've certainly given me and I'm sure others food for thought.

ferraris
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by ferraris » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:28 pm

The Eton speakers I have report the underseat sub as having a frequency range from 32-200hz and the mid/tweeter from 100-20k.

My amp is from Audison and they have setup files you can upload assuming you're also using Audison speakers however they don't have setups for the 2 series but they do for most of the other larger cars assuming an upgrade from the base system (so coax connected like the 1/2). The Audison speakers have similar frequency responses to the Etons so I'm trying out the setup files from the bigger cars with the speaker distances amended.

So as a starting position would you say setting a bandpass filter on the subs at 50-150 and a high pass filter starting at 150 on the fronts would be reasonable (Audison have 25-125 and a HP of 175 on the fronts)?

I have upgraded the rears but cut the volume right back so they're just a small amount of added volume without upsetting the sound stage.
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wellhouse
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by wellhouse » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:35 pm

The sub has a grill but not fitted in the pictures. The sub box is made to suit the sub, if you want it ported it will be, i personally prefer sealed as i like a punchy bass/sub bass rather than the slightly softer sound of a ported box. The price to manufacture is similar. I used to be a drummer in my 'youth' so quite fussy on the drum sound! In this system i can adjust the bass/sub bass gain using the JL remote by my seat - you can have as little or much as you want at the twist of a knob :mrgreen:
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Dunc2610
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by Dunc2610 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:39 pm

wellhouse wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:35 pm
The sub has a grill but not fitted in the pictures. The sub box is made to suit the sub, if you want it ported it will be, i personally prefer sealed as i like a punchy bass/sub bass rather the slightly softer sound of a ported box. The price to manufacture is similar. I used to be a drummer in my 'youth' so quite fussy on the drum sound! :mrgreen:
Funnily enough, I am too, and I am too!! :band: Nothing worse than a flappy, loose, muffled bass drum!! I want that THUD!

You may have already said, but where did you go for the enclosure for the sub? I used to use Car Audio Direct for my amps etc or second hand from people from Talk Audio.

wellhouse
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by wellhouse » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:04 pm

ferraris wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:28 pm
The Eton speakers I have report the underseat sub as having a frequency range from 32-200hz and the mid/tweeter from 100-20k.

My amp is from Audison and they have setup files you can upload assuming you're also using Audison speakers however they don't have setups for the 2 series but they do for most of the other larger cars assuming an upgrade from the base system (so coax connected like the 1/2). The Audison speakers have similar frequency responses to the Etons so I'm trying out the setup files from the bigger cars with the speaker distances amended.

So as a starting position would you say setting a bandpass filter on the subs at 50-150 and a high pass filter starting at 150 on the fronts would be reasonable (Audison have 25-125 and a HP of 175 on the fronts)?

I have upgraded the rears but cut the volume right back so they're just a small amount of added volume without upsetting the sound stage.
I had the Audison bit one and Audison AVk6 3 ways fully active in my TT so aware of the Audison setup files. Basically what you have done sounds about right with the time alignment amended to your listening position. I would check these TA settings by putting a test tone through each speaker and measure the SPL at the listening position. However, with no sub i would let the underseat subs (woofers) go as low as the amp/speaker will allow not artificially cap them at 50Hz. If Eton say they will go to 32Hz (unlikely unless in a perfect position - under the seat in a tupperware box is not one of them! :wink: ) why would you want to restrict them.

I'm not sure what spec mids/tweeters/x-overs you're using at the front end, but you need a bit of overlap between the woofers and your front end. As you are trying to use the woofers as subs (maybe?) i would let your mid drivers do most of the mid driving and set the woofers to overlap by about 20-30Hz from where the spec of the mid drivers start from.

I think in one of your earlier posts you said you use bass boost? As you will probably know, all this really does is artificially increase the gain on a preset frequency range. I would personally not use that option and just let the woofers do what they can at the bottom end. Artificially increasing the gain could be potentially forcing you into clipping at those frequencies at higher listening levels and it can make the bass sound a bit 'unnatural'. You could check by putting a test tone through the woofers circuit at the effected boost bass frequencies and putting an oscilloscope on the amp - i use a Liumy LM2000 and a tone generator for this. Ignore this if it wasn't your post.
Image

This is where an RTA comes in handy, as setting the x-overs/gains between the different speakers is not so much of a guessing game. Be careful when adjusting the x-overs that the gain is taken into consideration. i.e. if the woofer high filter is increased you may need to compensate on the gains on the mids and woofer to allow for the extra db generated by the x-over overlap. :starwars:
Last edited by wellhouse on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 8 times in total.

wellhouse
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Re: getting ready for m140 sub upgrade.

Post by wellhouse » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm

Dunc2610 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:39 pm
wellhouse wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:35 pm
The sub has a grill but not fitted in the pictures. The sub box is made to suit the sub, if you want it ported it will be, i personally prefer sealed as i like a punchy bass/sub bass rather the slightly softer sound of a ported box. The price to manufacture is similar. I used to be a drummer in my 'youth' so quite fussy on the drum sound! :mrgreen:
Funnily enough, I am too, and I am too!! :band: Nothing worse than a flappy, loose, muffled bass drum!! I want that THUD!

You may have already said, but where did you go for the enclosure for the sub? I used to use Car Audio Direct for my amps etc or second hand from people from Talk Audio.
I used to make my own but due to the time taken to physically do it, i now use Visual Ice, great bloke. He has set patterns or will make bespoke for only a few pounds more if you tell him what you want. (This is what i do). Normally turns it around in about a week from start to finish. :o :o :o

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