120d Xdrive judder

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mitford
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by mitford » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:39 pm

edbutler wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:15 pm
InvertedPanda wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:32 am
I’m currently having the exact same problem with my 2013 M135i xDrive. Never noticed it before until I fitted some brand new MPSS for the summer. Then I started to notice it when crawling in heavy traffic and now I feel it in every gear on part throttle but not so much on full throttle.

So I can count on it being an expensive repair? *Sigh*.
The problem is your tyres, not the Transfer Case. Its bloody ridiculous however that BMW allowed such a minuscule percentage between tyre sizes to cause problems - under 1%. Your car is juddering because its confused by the different wheel rotational speeds because the tyres are different sizes. BMW have specific star/asterisk marked tyres which are perfectly matched for this purpose. I would guess your old tyres complied with this, but the new ones didn't.

The Transfer Case on the 120d (i presume yours is the same) isn't the same as the old X3/X5's. Whereas they ripped apart the worm gear in their longitudinal torque modulation motor, our motor on the ATC35L transfer case is a stepper motor - so BMW fixed that issue.

I measured my tyres with a plumb line - marked the tyre at the top. Rolled the car 2 revolutions and checked again. The rear tyres had rolled over an inch further, meaning my tyres were about 1.4% out, despite them supposed to be the same (215/40/18 and 245/35/18)!
Interesting, I have an Xdrive and was thinking about handing back when I reach the half way point due to peoples problems with them, so your saying the fault with the transfer box in the 120d is no longer?

Also I was under the impression that the tyres just have to be the same wear correct pressures etc which are on the same axle?
F20 120d xdrive auto alpine white, interior comfort pack, adaptive suspension, sun protection glass, ferric grey alloys, active cruise controll, front & rear parking sensors

edbutler
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:10 pm

The tyres need to be within 1% all round.

I dont think there ever was a problem with the transfer case itself. It was the Longitudinal Torque Module (the gear inside to be more accurate) that did. There are many X3 documented cases where this was their problem, but many X3's didnt have staggered tyres.

F20's dont have this anymore.

mitford
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by mitford » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:38 am

edbutler wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:10 pm
The tyres need to be within 1mm All round
That’s crazy. So basically if you’ve got a non repairable puncture it’s 4 new tyres
F20 120d xdrive auto alpine white, interior comfort pack, adaptive suspension, sun protection glass, ferric grey alloys, active cruise controll, front & rear parking sensors

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Uncle Tupelo
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Uncle Tupelo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:52 am

mitford wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:38 am
edbutler wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:10 pm
The tyres need to be within 1mm All round
That’s crazy. So basically if you’ve got a non repairable puncture it’s 4 new tyres
Unless the tyres are fairly new and not greatly worn - I think you can maybe get away with a couple of millimetre's difference on non-staggered wheels - but don't quote me on that. It's long been the case with many modern AWD cars - not just BMW. Although there's a suggestion that the BMW system may be more sensitive to small variations in diameter than others.
2016 220d Sport xDrive auto.

edbutler
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 pm

I didn't say 1mm, I said 1 percent.

1 percent of an 18 inch wheel plus tyre is about 6.5 to 7mm in terms of diameter, so when your tyres are 3.5mm out you could start having trouble

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Uncle Tupelo
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Uncle Tupelo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:42 pm

edbutler wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 pm
I didn't say 1mm, I said 1 percent.

1 percent of an 18 inch wheel plus tyre is about 6.5 to 7mm in terms of diameter, so when your tyres are 3.5mm out you could start having trouble
Sorry, I quoted the post above mine (by Mitford) which misquoted you as saying "mm".
2016 220d Sport xDrive auto.

mitford
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by mitford » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:33 am

edbutler wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 pm
I didn't say 1mm, I said 1 percent.

1 percent of an 18 inch wheel plus tyre is about 6.5 to 7mm in terms of diameter, so when your tyres are 3.5mm out you could start having trouble
Sorry mate, I just wanted to quote the 1percent bit then ended up deleting to much so had to type it back in but wrong. I was talking and typing at the same time
F20 120d xdrive auto alpine white, interior comfort pack, adaptive suspension, sun protection glass, ferric grey alloys, active cruise controll, front & rear parking sensors

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:52 pm

No problem, please pardon my rushed response, was on the phone. I replied to the wrong post the other day :) Hope your fears are somewhat allayed.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by mitford » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:26 am

edbutler wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:52 pm
No problem, please pardon my rushed response, was on the phone. I replied to the wrong post the other day :) Hope your fears are somewhat allayed.
Indeed it has, thankyou. I was going to chop the car in at the halfway finance point but probably won’t now as I do enjoy driving it but was worried about the transfer box. I’m still going to take out the extended warranty though
F20 120d xdrive auto alpine white, interior comfort pack, adaptive suspension, sun protection glass, ferric grey alloys, active cruise controll, front & rear parking sensors

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Uncle Tupelo
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Uncle Tupelo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:18 am

mitford wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:26 am
I’m still going to take out the extended warranty though
Me too when the time comes. The risk of anything going wrong with the transfer box and/or auto box and the associated expense makes it a no brainer.
2016 220d Sport xDrive auto.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:53 pm

edbutler wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:15 pm
InvertedPanda wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:32 am
I’m currently having the exact same problem with my 2013 M135i xDrive. Never noticed it before until I fitted some brand new MPSS for the summer. Then I started to notice it when crawling in heavy traffic and now I feel it in every gear on part throttle but not so much on full throttle.

So I can count on it being an expensive repair? *Sigh*.
The problem is your tyres, not the Transfer Case. Its bloody ridiculous however that BMW allowed such a minuscule percentage between tyre sizes to cause problems - under 1%. Your car is juddering because its confused by the different wheel rotational speeds because the tyres are different sizes. BMW have specific star/asterisk marked tyres which are perfectly matched for this purpose. I would guess your old tyres complied with this, but the new ones didn't.

The Transfer Case on the 120d (i presume yours is the same) isn't the same as the old X3/X5's. Whereas they ripped apart the worm gear in their longitudinal torque modulation motor, our motor on the ATC35L transfer case is a stepper motor - so BMW fixed that issue.

I measured my tyres with a plumb line - marked the tyre at the top. Rolled the car 2 revolutions and checked again. The rear tyres had rolled over an inch further, meaning my tyres were about 1.4% out, despite them supposed to be the same (215/40/18 and 245/35/18)!

My new tyres are Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Star marked and in the following sizes:

Fronts: 225/40/18
Rears: 245/35/18

I got those tyre specs off this forum before ordering. I made sure they are to OEM spec. Maybe it’ll help if I run the same tyres all round?
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:52 pm

Those tyres should be fine. I would double check your tyre pressures are all correct and failing that, that all 4 tyres have the same rollout.

You can check this by marking the tyres at the top (use a plumb line through the centre of the roundel on the wheel centre cap). Roll the car 2-3 tyre revolutions in a straight line and make sure all marks are in the same position. Around 1.5cm per revolution difference on your markings equates to around 1% circumference difference.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:24 am

edbutler wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:52 pm
Those tyres should be fine. I would double check your tyre pressures are all correct and failing that, that all 4 tyres have the same rollout.

You can check this by marking the tyres at the top (use a plumb line through the centre of the roundel on the wheel centre cap). Roll the car 2-3 tyre revolutions in a straight line and make sure all marks are in the same position. Around 1.5cm per revolution difference on your markings equates to around 1% circumference difference.
Thank you. I will give that a try.

However... If the wheels are indeed out... What should I do?
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:11 pm

So I went and had a look at the tyre roll-out after making sure that all tyre pressures are correct.

The rears are indeed completing a full revolution quicker than the front tyres.

I didn't have a plumb line or any string to hand, unfortunately, so I did it with some white parcel tape. Good enough for me.

The wheels are so far out, it's visible to the naked eye.

Here's a picture to demonstrate the difference in rolling circumference between front and back after 3 turns.

Image

The question now is... How do I fix this?
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

edbutler
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:13 pm

Hey that's an intuitive way of doing it! Yeah your tyres are well over 1 percent out and that's your problem. Did you measure it?

I would suggest you contact your tyre supplier or BMW with each tyres details. It looks like they aren't Star rated (even though you said they are). Or maybe the front and rears are star rated for different cars?

What's the load rating on all the tyres? Does it match the one on your door sill label?

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