Birds or Motech

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Connar92
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Connar92 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:17 pm

racey1979 wrote:
Connar92 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:22 pm
Torquey wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:48 pm
They said if there suspension man Kevin Weaver didn’t suggest it it didn’t need it, they also said they would be happy to be proved wrong.
Thats the thing ive never heard of kevin weaver. I cant be the only one? Image
Hes not called Kevin Weaver, he's called James Weaver...........

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W ... ng_driver)
ImageImageImage

You make a good point. Still whos Kevin Weaver? Image

My bad! Image


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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Torquey » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:19 pm

My mistake, sorry. Kevin Weaver 😂
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racey1979
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by racey1979 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:22 pm

marco_polo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:36 pm
Did they really say adding a degree of negative camber wouldn't make any difference?! :shock:

Their credibility has just plummeted in my estimations.
I spoke with Kevin Bird about M4 LCA’s and he never said to me they wouldn’t make a difference. He said that they had fitted them at the request of a few customers but he hadn’t driven a car with them on so couldn’t comment. Perhaps they weren’t comfortable recommending OE parts that were designed for a completely different vehicle? Which I can understand. Maybe it’s dodgy ground for them ??...I dunno? Are you really judging them down by this one thing Marco ? Find me bad press/reviews/comments about Birds systems, they are very few and far between, they’ve been around for decades and know thier stuff. Their prices might be lofty but I can wholeheartedly say their kits work very well. Kevin Bird said James Weaver had advised on a wider front track to improve steering hence thier 10 mm spacers recommendation......not a million miles away from the M4 LCA modification ? Perhaps as mentioned, they don’t want to go down the route of fitting different parts not designed for m lites.??
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by marco_polo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:30 pm

racey1979 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:22 pm
marco_polo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:36 pm
Did they really say adding a degree of negative camber wouldn't make any difference?! :shock:

Their credibility has just plummeted in my estimations.
I spoke with Kevin Bird about M4 LCA’s and he never said to me they wouldn’t make a difference. He said that they had fitted them at the request of a few customers but he hadn’t driven a car with them on so couldn’t comment. Perhaps they weren’t comfortable recommending OE parts that were designed for a completely different vehicle? Which I can understand. Maybe it’s dodgy ground for them ??...I dunno? Are you really judging them down by this one thing Marco ? Find me bad press/reviews/comments about Birds systems, they are very few and far between, they’ve been around for decades and know thier stuff. Their prices might be lofty but I can wholeheartedly say their kits work very well. Kevin Bird said James Weaver had advised on a wider front track to improve steering hence thier 10 mm spacers recommendation......not a million miles away from the M4 LCA modification ? Perhaps as mentioned, they don’t want to go down the route of fitting different parts not designed for m lites.??
The difference between dodgy wheel spacers and longer wishbones is huge. Camber changes, scrub radius changes, bush changes.

I'm guessing they have a cheapo supplier for their crappy spacers; so it's a quick buck for them, mugging off customers? Or it's too much ramp time to do the job properly? Or their own springs are too short to work with M4 arms? Smacks of profiteering, rather than setting up cars well.

I'm incredibly disappointed.
Silver F21 M135i - ManBox - HK - Adaptive + Eibach Pro's - BBS CH-R's - BMWP Drexler LSD - M4 LCA's

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racey1979
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by racey1979 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:47 pm

You’re “incredibly disappointed” even though you’ve never driven a Birds vehicle I assume ? I’m not disputing the argument between Birds “cheapo crappy” spacers (which are made by Eibach btw not the bloke round the corner with a lathe and battery drill in his shed) and longer wishbones. I just think the fitting of parts (or recommendation of such) not originally designed for the vehicle may be an issue for a such a company. Are there any other chassis tuners out there offering to fit M4 LCA’s or recommending them as an upgrade ? Never seen one myself but happy to be corrected ?
F22 67 M240i MG, Coral, Birds B2, MP Kit, HK, Pro Media
E91 59 335d Space Grey Emaps 350 BHP 710 nm (hers)
E46 02 325ti Compact - Sold
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by marco_polo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 pm

They've fitted M4 arms before, but Kevin Bird couldn't even be bothered to test drive them - says it all, no? Hardly a pragmatic view.

They're aware of them, but clearly not interested.
Silver F21 M135i - ManBox - HK - Adaptive + Eibach Pro's - BBS CH-R's - BMWP Drexler LSD - M4 LCA's

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racey1979
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by racey1979 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:10 pm

marco_polo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 pm
They've fitted M4 arms before, but Kevin Bird couldn't even be bothered to test drive them - says it all, no? Hardly a pragmatic view.

They're aware of them, but clearly not interested.
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...Perhaps ? But as mentioned, they might not be comfortable fitting OE parts not originally designed for the vehicle. Imagine a customer wraps his/her car around a tree and does serious damage to themselves? I know you could argue the same with fitting aftermarket parts....but they are generally designed for the specific vehicle as an upgrade. M4 LCA’s are not considered an upgrade part, they are designed for M4’s. I might be talking bollox here but that’s how I see it. Also, if a Birds were “profiteering” why do they always have several demo vehicles with thier kits fitted and are more than happy to take you out in them before you part with cash ? Which other tuner offers this ? You don’t like? You :censored: off somewhere else......simple.
F22 67 M240i MG, Coral, Birds B2, MP Kit, HK, Pro Media
E91 59 335d Space Grey Emaps 350 BHP 710 nm (hers)
E46 02 325ti Compact - Sold
E46 01 330ci Coupe - Sold
Renault Clio 16 Valve
Citroen AX GTI - Saxo VTS Engined Money Pit - “Gone” :wink:

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Spoof » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:30 pm

Are those fitting LCA off the M4 changing the top mounts to keep the scrub radius similar?
Last edited by Spoof on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Blind Pugh » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:33 pm

One thing to consider as Birds endeavour to make kits that work for a range of vehicles.

In the case of F2x B1S or B2S - IIRC their kits are identical for RWD and XWD (same for their B3s/B4s kits) hence spacers work for both 2WD & 4WD, unlike F8x arms - only good for 2WD.
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by racey1979 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:41 pm

Blind Pugh wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:33 pm
One thing to consider as Birds endeavour to make kits that work for a range of vehicles.

In the case of F2x B1S or B2S - IIRC their kits are identical for RWD and XWD (same for their B3s/B4s kits) hence spacers work for both 2WD & 4WD, unlike F8x arms - only good for 2WD.
Good point
F22 67 M240i MG, Coral, Birds B2, MP Kit, HK, Pro Media
E91 59 335d Space Grey Emaps 350 BHP 710 nm (hers)
E46 02 325ti Compact - Sold
E46 01 330ci Coupe - Sold
Renault Clio 16 Valve
Citroen AX GTI - Saxo VTS Engined Money Pit - “Gone” :wink:

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Blind Pugh » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:58 pm

Spoof wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:30 pm
Are those fitting LCA off the M4 changing the top mounts to keep the scrub radius similar?
No, changing top mounts not essential, unless wanting more camber than circa -1deg F8x adds to the front geo.

FYI F8x lower arms doesn’t change scrub radius, unlike spacers.
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by garysan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:21 pm

I'm no expert here at all but my Eibach (Motech) springs with 12mm spacers gave me the desired 1 degree of neg on the fronts.
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Blind Pugh » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:38 pm

garysan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:21 pm
I'm no expert here at all but my Eibach (Motech) springs with 12mm spacers gave me the desired 1 degree of neg on the fronts.
Makes sense if aiming at circa -1deg front camber as adding lowerimg springs to an mlite adds about -0.5 deg to stock -0.3 to -0.5 stock front camber.

Lowered springs and F8x arms nets near -2deg front camber for those wanting more than -1deg as above
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Spoof » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:31 am

Blind Pugh wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:58 pm
Spoof wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:30 pm
Are those fitting LCA off the M4 changing the top mounts to keep the scrub radius similar?
No, changing top mounts not essential, unless wanting more camber than circa -1deg F8x adds to the front geo.

FYI F8x lower arms doesn’t change scrub radius, unlike spacers.
How does that work?
I studied automotive engineering many moons ago and although braking systems were my area of expertise, I thought I had a basic understanding of suspension (obviously not)
If the top mount location is fixed and your changing the KPI, how is scrub radius not changing? Genuinely interested... Maybe I'm miss remembering what scrub radius is.

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by marco_polo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:01 am

By adding longer wishbones to a McPherson strut set-up, you swing the entire wheel/hub/damper assembly outward together as one, scrub radius isn't significantly effected.

Image

It's not like adding Camber Shims, or a Wheel spacer in the middle (which instantly changes the effective wheel offset) - and therefore scrub radius.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hWijfooeSyU
Silver F21 M135i - ManBox - HK - Adaptive + Eibach Pro's - BBS CH-R's - BMWP Drexler LSD - M4 LCA's

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