Birds or Motech

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Spoof
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Spoof » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:09 am

Ahh thanks. I'll stick to my current day job.

I still don't see how you can change the camber without changing the scrub radius though. The tyre centre line has surely changed? O.K It's probably very minimal with only 1' of change.

Spoof
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Spoof » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:20 am

Found this, which I think shows what I mean.

Image

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Blind Pugh » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:35 am

Spoof wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:09 am
I still don't see how you can change the camber without changing the scrub radius though. The tyre centre line has surely changed? O.K It's probably very minimal with only 1' of change.
Spoof,

Using camber plates/adjustable top mounts - to add negative camber - either with or w/o spacers - to widen the track - will have an effect on steering angle inclination [SAI] & scrub radius of a front strut suspension setup.

Fitting longer lower arms adds camber + track width but as lower ball joint and wheel flange face are both pushed outboard by the same amount, hence my comment about scrub radius effect is much less/negligible.

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marco_polo
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by marco_polo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 am

^^ Spoof, that Pic's for lowering cars, no? Lowering effects your roll-centre negatively too, which is why I don't recommend people 'slam' their cars.


In the first pic below, we have a standard length wishbone. In the second pic, the damper + wheel assembly (whole image) has been rotated by almost 1° with a longer wishbone. This rotates both blue lines, which still intersect at basically the same position:

Scrub Radius 2.jpg
Scrub Radius 2.jpg (63.19 KiB) Viewed 307 times

Or have I screwed the pooch somewhere?

If you shift the centreline over 10mm with a spacer, the scrub radius is obviously 10mm out straight away, I'm guessing we don't need a picture for that bodge job!
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Stueys » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:49 pm

Thanks all for the advice, fairly strong steer that Birds is the way to go. I’ll carry on saving up...

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Spoof » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:13 am

I'm being a pedant, I know. but you're diagram is still not showing any camber.

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by marco_polo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:49 am

Yeah, 1 degree doesn't really show on my monitor either.
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motechmike
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by motechmike » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:39 pm

JonD wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:06 pm
Birds!

Motech fit generic sping’s (no disrespect to the forum sponsor), birds have developed their own setup specifically for uk roads.
How so ?


Our Springs a version of the the Eiabch pro kit.. its a 5mm lower drop on the front and 10mm on the rear over the pro kit..

Its not the same kit, they are made just for us.. thats what there is more cost , we have a lot less made of them..
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by GBC80 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 pm

Not wanting to steal the OP, but this is my only gripe with the car and my next priority to change it...haven't done it yet since the car is still under warranty with BMW, and part of me would like to try a car with one of these options first to make sure it doesn't go the wrong way...but it will come. Am I right in saying that the usual two reliable options are:

1- the Birds at £1562 fitted (I wonder if that includes alignment as well?)
2- buy the Bilstein B12 dampers kit with Eibach springs from Ebay??? and get them fitted yourself? If so, does anyone know a reliable seller on Ebay, assume from Germany for a F21 (with passive suspension)?
3- as per option 2 but with B16 kit for more money of course.

Not interested in the Motech...you either go for the most reputable company Birds if money-no-object or do it yourself and save some money, IMHO.
Thanks in advance
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Torquey » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:34 pm

I have the Birds b1 set up and think it’s great. I think you’ll find there’s vat to add to that price. They have demo cars to try if your interested.
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Fitzy2008
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by Fitzy2008 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:42 pm

I have also tried the birds set up and it was great and I was definitely considering the kit. I opted for kw street comforts instead. Had birds been closer to me it would have been what I went for. But now motech has a kit I wouldn't dismiss it as there lowering springs worked well.

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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by markm240i » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:42 pm

GBC80 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 pm
Not wanting to steal the OP, but this is my only gripe with the car and my next priority to change it...haven't done it yet since the car is still under warranty with BMW, and part of me would like to try a car with one of these options first to make sure it doesn't go the wrong way...but it will come. Am I right in saying that the usual two reliable options are:

1- the Birds at £1562 fitted (I wonder if that includes alignment as well?)
2- buy the Bilstein B12 dampers kit with Eibach springs from Ebay??? and get them fitted yourself? If so, does anyone know a reliable seller on Ebay, assume from Germany for a F21 (with passive suspension)?
3- as per option 2 but with B16 kit for more money of course.

Not interested in the Motech...you either go for the most reputable company Birds if money-no-object or do it yourself and save some money, IMHO.
Thanks in advance
Option 2) Buy from German ebay or last time I looked Demontweeks had the B12 kit for the M140i in stock for the same sort of money as ebay.
If you can't fit yourself I was quoted £40 per corner from a local indie and £100 for Hunter alignment.
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Birds or Motech

Post by Connar92 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:23 pm

Not sure why the motech stuff is being slated so much? Surely the springs being bought with the dampers is the same as an eibach b12 kit? I understand buying the springs on their own on with stock dampers is a personal choice or for a budget.

Birds stuff seems to be rated really highly but £1300 for “eibach springs and B6 dampers” is alot of money. Would it really either out perform either a stock B12 kit at £700 or a motech b12 kit at £850?

All 3 kits are eibach springs and billy dampers. Im not sure how people are saying how motech have rebranded some eibachs but isnt that exactly the same as what birds has done? Image

Im just going to stress these arnt my words. I cannot comment for or against the b2 setup. This is off another forum that ive copied into this thread....

“I really enjoyed my fully Birds equipped 135i. The car was on another level compared to a standard E82 M-Sport set up! Better than an E90 M3 by some margin infact :)

These articles are just PR though. My kit was also developed in conjunction with a respected but less well known tin top racer.
I remember the article well, as it seems like only yesterday :oops:

This is how they add credance to their products and justify a much higher price.

'Developed by racing driver' is their PR puff and gets angood article written, with lots of input from Birds.

I'm not saying there's actually anything wrong with it, but it's a manufactured story they just trot out.

It's standard stuff. Advertising 101 if you will...
Tell people they have a problem.
Let them know it is a VERY difficult to deal with.
So difficult in fact, that even they needed to hire in consultancy.
Then tell everyone you've somehow managed the impossible and have the perfect product.
Then make the product available in an easily digestable package that makes
It seem like you'd be mad to try anything else.
This de-emhasises the price to an extent and makes it seem amazing value.
Stand by the till and wait for the deluge of wallets.....

Although the kit was good, any dealings I had with Birds / Kevin, left me with a nasty taste.
Wrong parts, price higher when I arrived, contradictory advice, errors in the workshop, billing to correct their own errors etc.

Aloof / elitist attitude and the above tomfoolery are not happy bedfellows :(

If it was all cheap as chips, I could live with the sloppy service, but it's all premium kit at premium prices.

9/10 for the E82 stuff.
4 / 10 for the experience.

I'm sure I'd like the new kit on a 2 series as well, but not sure I could bring myself to deal with them again!”

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Last edited by Connar92 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stag74
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by stag74 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:29 pm

motechmike wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:39 pm
JonD wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:06 pm
Birds!

Motech fit generic sping’s (no disrespect to the forum sponsor), birds have developed their own setup specifically for uk roads.
How so ?


Our Springs a version of the the Eiabch pro kit.. its a 5mm lower drop on the front and 10mm on the rear over the pro kit..

Its not the same kit, they are made just for us.. thats what there is more cost , we have a lot less made of them..
So your springs are the pro kit springs, but made slightly lower for you?
Is the spring rate different though?

I think the point being made is that the pro kit spring rate is not specific to the UK but Europe, but the Birds kit is custom tuned for the UK.
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Re: Birds or Motech

Post by tyusaf » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:45 am

GBC80 wrote: 1- the Birds at £1562 fitted (I wonder if that includes alignment as well?)
This does not include alignment.
When asked about alignment, they said “it doesn’t need it”
Make your own mind up about that statement.


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