120d Xdrive judder

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InvertedPanda
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:10 pm

edbutler wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:13 pm
Hey that's an intuitive way of doing it! Yeah your tyres are well over 1 percent out and that's your problem. Did you measure it?

I would suggest you contact your tyre supplier or BMW with each tyres details. It looks like they aren't Star rated (even though you said they are). Or maybe the front and rears are star rated for different cars?

What's the load rating on all the tyres? Does it match the one on your door sill label?

The door sill label matches exactly. They all have a star logo on each tyre. I made sure of that when purchasing them online.

I might head to the local tyre shop tomorrow and see if they can do me a good price. I just forked out 860 Swiss Francs with balancing and fitting for these in May :(

I didn’t measure the difference unfortunately as I had nothing to measure with. I’m an IT guy so don’t have that kinda material around, haha.

I’m driving from Switzerland to the UK at the beginning of August and really want to get it sorted before then.

Hopefully there is no mechanical damage.
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

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NISFAN
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by NISFAN » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:08 pm

InvertedPanda wrote:So I went and had a look at the tyre roll-out after making sure that all tyre pressures are correct.

The rears are indeed completing a full revolution quicker than the front tyres.

I didn't have a plumb line or any string to hand, unfortunately, so I did it with some white parcel tape. Good enough for me.

The wheels are so far out, it's visible to the naked eye.

Here's a picture to demonstrate the difference in rolling circumference between front and back after 3 turns.

Image

The question now is... How do I fix this?
If that is 3 revolutions, it doesn’t seem that bad. A better way to measure, is to mark the bottom of each tyre (6 o clock position) as well as the ground where the marks are, then roll car forwards 3 revolutions and mark ground. Then measure distance from start to finish for each axle. You can then compare accurate numbers to get % difference.


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InvertedPanda
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:28 am

So just a quick update on my side. (Sorry to hijack the thread).

I went to BMW here in Switzerland yesterday who said that they had never heard of this issue. (I call BS)

I showed them the picture that I posted in this thread and showed them exactly what was wrong. I insisted on one of their mechanics to come and test drive the car. He immediately said that he could feel the xDrive system constantly trying to shuffle power along both axles.
He then immediately said that he doesn't think that it's the tyres causing the issue.

However, as soon as I told him that this issue only occurred since putting the summer tyres on, he back tracked and told me to bring my winter tyres in and let BMW mount them to see if the issue disappears. They wanted to charge me 250 Swiss Francs for this... :censored:

A friend of mine who also has a M135i with xDrive is going to lend me his spare wheels to test out and see if the issue still exists.

If it does, I can be almost certain that the transfer case needs replacing. If the issue disappears, I need new tyres. I hope it's the second option as it's much cheaper...
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:50 pm

InvertedPanda wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:28 am
So just a quick update on my side. (Sorry to hijack the thread).

I went to BMW here in Switzerland yesterday who said that they had never heard of this issue. (I call BS)

I showed them the picture that I posted in this thread and showed them exactly what was wrong. I insisted on one of their mechanics to come and test drive the car. He immediately said that he could feel the xDrive system constantly trying to shuffle power along both axles.
He then immediately said that he doesn't think that it's the tyres causing the issue.

However, as soon as I told him that this issue only occurred since putting the summer tyres on, he back tracked and told me to bring my winter tyres in and let BMW mount them to see if the issue disappears. They wanted to charge me 250 Swiss Francs for this... :censored:

A friend of mine who also has a M135i with xDrive is going to lend me his spare wheels to test out and see if the issue still exists.

If it does, I can be almost certain that the transfer case needs replacing. If the issue disappears, I need new tyres. I hope it's the second option as it's much cheaper...
I guarantee its the tyres :)

Make sure the tyres you try are not staggered or different brands, as every manufacturer & size is allowed a tolerance! I fortunately had a set of winter tyres (non-staggered) when going through your predicament and sure enough, the problem went away.

I now run 225/40 and 255/35 tyres a (which on paper is a 0.3% difference) and it just about copes :)

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by InvertedPanda » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm

edbutler wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:50 pm
InvertedPanda wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:28 am
So just a quick update on my side. (Sorry to hijack the thread).

I went to BMW here in Switzerland yesterday who said that they had never heard of this issue. (I call BS)

I showed them the picture that I posted in this thread and showed them exactly what was wrong. I insisted on one of their mechanics to come and test drive the car. He immediately said that he could feel the xDrive system constantly trying to shuffle power along both axles.
He then immediately said that he doesn't think that it's the tyres causing the issue.

However, as soon as I told him that this issue only occurred since putting the summer tyres on, he back tracked and told me to bring my winter tyres in and let BMW mount them to see if the issue disappears. They wanted to charge me 250 Swiss Francs for this... :censored:

A friend of mine who also has a M135i with xDrive is going to lend me his spare wheels to test out and see if the issue still exists.

If it does, I can be almost certain that the transfer case needs replacing. If the issue disappears, I need new tyres. I hope it's the second option as it's much cheaper...
I guarantee its the tyres :)

Make sure the tyres you try are not staggered or different brands, as every manufacturer & size is allowed a tolerance! I fortunately had a set of winter tyres (non-staggered) when going through your predicament and sure enough, the problem went away.

I now run 225/40 and 255/35 tyres a (which on paper is a 0.3% difference) and it just about copes :)
I just used an online calculator and your sizes are indeed giving a difference of around 0.3%. Are your rears star marked?

I found these and was wondering if I should purchase them for the rear:

Michelin Pilot Super Sport 255/35 ZR18 94Y XL TPC

Thank you for all your help. You’ve been absolutely brilliant.
Owner of a 2013 Sapphire Black F21 BMW M135i xDrive with adaptive suspension and MPSS.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Deanjwalker91 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:51 pm

edbutler wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:48 pm
Just in case someone comes across this thread with a car out of warranty - please don't dispair. The F20 shares its XDrive Transfer Case with the E84 and those owners have found the true culprit.

The problem is not the Transfer Case, but the Actuator (motor). More specifically, its a gear within the motor housing. It turns out that this gear is plastic and repeatedly worn on the same area of the radius. You can apparently turn this around 180 degrees or or just buy a new one. have a good read at this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=566880

The gears can be bought for around £25 here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/BMW-F07-F25-F10- ... SwDehZngou
Just bought a 63 320d xdrive and I'm experiencing the exact same issue of juddering under power, I've looked everywhere and this post seems to be the most knowledgeable. Ive found loads of replacement actuator gears for x3/5/6s but can't find any for the f30. Does anyone know if they share the same actuator motor?

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Uncle Tupelo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:59 pm

Deanjwalker91 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:51 pm
Just bought a 63 320d xdrive and I'm experiencing the exact same issue of juddering under power, I've looked everywhere and this post seems to be the most knowledgeable. Ive found loads of replacement actuator gears for x3/5/6s but can't find any for the f30. Does anyone know if they share the same actuator motor?
Apparently, you can confirm a transfer box fault by temporarily disconnecting the BUS cable from the transfer box. If the symptoms disappear, it's the box.
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Deanjwalker91 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:51 pm
edbutler wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:48 pm
Just in case someone comes across this thread with a car out of warranty - please don't dispair. The F20 shares its XDrive Transfer Case with the E84 and those owners have found the true culprit.

The problem is not the Transfer Case, but the Actuator (motor). More specifically, its a gear within the motor housing. It turns out that this gear is plastic and repeatedly worn on the same area of the radius. You can apparently turn this around 180 degrees or or just buy a new one. have a good read at this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=566880

The gears can be bought for around £25 here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/BMW-F07-F25-F10- ... SwDehZngou
Just bought a 63 320d xdrive and I'm experiencing the exact same issue of juddering under power, I've looked everywhere and this post seems to be the most knowledgeable. Ive found loads of replacement actuator gears for x3/5/6s but can't find any for the f30. Does anyone know if they share the same actuator motor?
If you read the whole thread, i found out that the ATC35L Actuator is not the same as the older X3's etc which had worm gears that wore out. Ours is a stepper motor which looks FAR more robust and no longer a weak point.

Your jerking will be due to inconsistent wheel/tyre circumferences causing the transfer case to try and re-distribute torque.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Deanjwalker91 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:26 pm

edbutler wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Deanjwalker91 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:51 pm
edbutler wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:48 pm
Just in case someone comes across this thread with a car out of warranty - please don't dispair. The F20 shares its XDrive Transfer Case with the E84 and those owners have found the true culprit.

The problem is not the Transfer Case, but the Actuator (motor). More specifically, its a gear within the motor housing. It turns out that this gear is plastic and repeatedly worn on the same area of the radius. You can apparently turn this around 180 degrees or or just buy a new one. have a good read at this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=566880

The gears can be bought for around £25 here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/BMW-F07-F25-F10- ... SwDehZngou
Just bought a 63 320d xdrive and I'm experiencing the exact same issue of juddering under power, I've looked everywhere and this post seems to be the most knowledgeable. Ive found loads of replacement actuator gears for x3/5/6s but can't find any for the f30. Does anyone know if they share the same actuator motor?
If you read the whole thread, i found out that the ATC35L Actuator is not the same as the older X3's etc which had worm gears that wore out. Ours is a stepper motor which looks FAR more robust and no longer a weak point.

Your jerking will be due to inconsistent wheel/tyre circumferences causing the transfer case to try and re-distribute torque.
I did read the full post, unfortunately I'm not 100% on car terminology and got lost with the longitudinal torque module and 1% circumference discrepancies. No wonder I couldn't find the cog for the actuator I've been in touch with bmw and everywhere in between 😂. So how would I fix the juddering, my car is on 4 Michelin 225/50/17s. Is it tracking and wheel alignment I need or new wheels/tyres?

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by stevesurrey » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Is that tyre size listed on the tyre plate on your drivers door B pillar ? Are they all the same type of michelin's and with similar wear ? Did you buy the car from a dealer with a warranty (so you could bounce it back to them to sort out) ?
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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Deanjwalker91 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:39 pm

Yeh all michelin 225/50/17 94w as stated above. You guys have just saved me a lot of stress and money, I checked the plate on the door for recommend tyre pressures and it said mine should have been 29psi front and 31 back. Went to the garage and they were all 35psi, put them to the required psi and took it for a good run, no juddering! Over the moon is an understatement. Hopefully that's the issue sorted I haven't tried it with multiple passengers yet but when I do I'll post it on this thread. Thanks again!

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:12 pm

Fantastic result - happy for you mate! Just goes to show how idiotically sensitive these things are!!

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Deanjwalker91 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:18 pm

Thanks mate 👍 exactly and bmw will be making a killing off transfer boxes. I went to my local bmw garage and they said their selling 25 transfer boxes a month so there's obviously an issue with them! I just need to be cautious if I ever fit different wheels now.

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by Jhl94 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:24 pm

I purchased my 120d xdrive in May 2016 on 49k miles. Almost straight away it had the judder everyone describes.

Went back to the dealer a few times to no avail. Anyway I have now done 105k miles and there is no judder. I can’t remember the last time I felt it judder. I haven’t had star rated tyres on, just some UniRoyals, two sets at that.

Anyone provide a theory on why my symptoms have disappeared?

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Re: 120d Xdrive judder

Post by edbutler » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:48 am

Jhl94 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:24 pm
I purchased my 120d xdrive in May 2016 on 49k miles. Almost straight away it had the judder everyone describes.

Went back to the dealer a few times to no avail. Anyway I have now done 105k miles and there is no judder. I can’t remember the last time I felt it judder. I haven’t had star rated tyres on, just some UniRoyals, two sets at that.

Anyone provide a theory on why my symptoms have disappeared?
What tyre sizes do you have?

I would guess at 2 potential scenarios:
1. Your tyre wear and pressures are at a sweet-spot within the tolerances of the transfer case. This can checked by the 'rollout test' which a InvertedPanda posted a photo of a few posts ago.
2. Your transfer case clutch is knackered to the point it cant actually transfer power anymore.

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